SiliconAddict
Aug 7, 07:41 PM
The Meh was strong in that keynote. I was looking for something explosive and found a snap bang that someone threw to the ground. Short of those top secret features :rolleyes: being something earth shattering Leopard looks to be another micro update to OS X. While any forward momentum in the OS is a good thing what we've seen of Leopard does not suggest that gulf that will be closed with Vista (After SP1 & 2 that is.) is going to be widened again with Leopard.
The things dumped into the OS are simply more addon crap. That isn't to say adding new features aren't welcome but the time is right for a serious revamp to the UI of OS X.
I'm not happy about this development. It seems as if real forward momentum in OS X has all but stalled. Like most of Apple now a days they aren't taking chances anymore with their wares be it software or hardware. They seem to focus on finding previously used ideas, slap a new coat of paint on it, buff it up to a nice shine, then give it some "fun" name and call it innovation.
Apple may have been in decline in the 90's but at least that Apple took chances. Took risks on new and innovative hardware. I want the old Apple back. . . to a point. More then anything I want to get excited in a product that is revolutionary not evolutionary. :(
Call me a cynic, but I'd say Apple either hasn't implemented them yet or hasn't thought of them yet.
Or they are so buggy at this point they aren't ready to demo them. That is my guess. This crap about not wanting MS to copy. Sorry but Windows is feature locked at this point. There is simply NO way for Microsoft to roll out anything new unless its such a minor thing that it would be easy to do. I really wish Apple wouldn't spit in my face and call it rain.
The things dumped into the OS are simply more addon crap. That isn't to say adding new features aren't welcome but the time is right for a serious revamp to the UI of OS X.
I'm not happy about this development. It seems as if real forward momentum in OS X has all but stalled. Like most of Apple now a days they aren't taking chances anymore with their wares be it software or hardware. They seem to focus on finding previously used ideas, slap a new coat of paint on it, buff it up to a nice shine, then give it some "fun" name and call it innovation.
Apple may have been in decline in the 90's but at least that Apple took chances. Took risks on new and innovative hardware. I want the old Apple back. . . to a point. More then anything I want to get excited in a product that is revolutionary not evolutionary. :(
Call me a cynic, but I'd say Apple either hasn't implemented them yet or hasn't thought of them yet.
Or they are so buggy at this point they aren't ready to demo them. That is my guess. This crap about not wanting MS to copy. Sorry but Windows is feature locked at this point. There is simply NO way for Microsoft to roll out anything new unless its such a minor thing that it would be easy to do. I really wish Apple wouldn't spit in my face and call it rain.
bibbz
Jun 14, 05:58 PM
Here's the info from the big call we just had...
We will be taking reservations at 12PM CST. This reservation guarantees you a phone on launch day. The way our DC knows which stores to send phones is from the reservations. Example. If my store reserves 10, i will get 10 + a few extra. There will be limited quantities, so get to your store as early as possible before 12pm cst and hang out. The pin numbers are to match your reservation to your phone b/c there is no money transfer. Replenishment on iPhone 4 is based on iPhone 3G/s sales. If your local store sells 1 every 2 weeks, they wont be getting replenished as often as a store that sole 10/week.
Also, we CAN open whenever we want to on launch day. My store is opening at 6am. One hour before Best Buy, and ATT.
We will be taking reservations at 12PM CST. This reservation guarantees you a phone on launch day. The way our DC knows which stores to send phones is from the reservations. Example. If my store reserves 10, i will get 10 + a few extra. There will be limited quantities, so get to your store as early as possible before 12pm cst and hang out. The pin numbers are to match your reservation to your phone b/c there is no money transfer. Replenishment on iPhone 4 is based on iPhone 3G/s sales. If your local store sells 1 every 2 weeks, they wont be getting replenished as often as a store that sole 10/week.
Also, we CAN open whenever we want to on launch day. My store is opening at 6am. One hour before Best Buy, and ATT.
FF_productions
Aug 15, 01:13 PM
Couldn't it be the harddrive that is the limiting factor in this bnechmark?
When rendering in FCP, it's all about the CPU.
Fast hard drives contribute to real-time effects, but do NOT contribute to rendering.
Ram helps a little bit.
When rendering in FCP, it's all about the CPU.
Fast hard drives contribute to real-time effects, but do NOT contribute to rendering.
Ram helps a little bit.
amols
Aug 27, 02:02 AM
The next major upgrade to Intel's notebook design isn't expected until early 2007 with a new notebook platform named "Santa Rosa". Santa Rosa will combine the Core 2 Duo processors with new supporting chips as well as Intel's AMT (http://www.intel.com/technology/manage/iamt/) (Active Management Technology) and Robson technology.
I still pity those guys expecting "Major" MBP performance gain by moving to Merom without Santa Rosa. They are as ignorant as those people expecting G5s with their two pound heat sinks to go in powerbooks. I'm just looking forward to see Conroe iMac and better battery life for MBPs. And iPod update off course ;)
I still pity those guys expecting "Major" MBP performance gain by moving to Merom without Santa Rosa. They are as ignorant as those people expecting G5s with their two pound heat sinks to go in powerbooks. I'm just looking forward to see Conroe iMac and better battery life for MBPs. And iPod update off course ;)
Glassman
Sep 19, 02:03 AM
there's no reason not to switch to Core 2 Duo as they sell for the same price as Core Duo and are drop in replacement.. the only possible reason for the delay is supply shortage.. it's not unusual to see PC vendors announce new processors even though they are unable to ship them at that time, but at the same time they keep options for the older model, which ships instantly.. Apple thinks differently, they will announce the update when they're ready to ship and starting that day they cease selling the older models.. I think thats fair.. the only difference is that they don't make announcements several weeks in advance..
Apple has no reason not to follow Intel's speed bumps, because on each speed bump the prices shifts towards the lower models, in other words Intel keeps the prices the same but speed bumps at every level.. if Apple does not update, they're keeping extra money in their pockets..
as for the updates, I'm curious wheter it's gonna be just a processor switch or wheter they will also move from ATi to nVidia as they did in iMacs.. ATi is now owned by AMD and maybe somehow Apple bets more on nVidia because of using Intel processors only.. also I don't expect MXM slots for video cards for the same reason there's no processor socket in MBP, they ough to keep this as tight as possible..
I personally don't care about DL SuperDrive, but as they managed to fit it into same 1" thick 17" model, they should do it with 15.4" models too..
what I miss absolutely the most is WSXGA+ resolution in 15.4" and WUXGA in 17" - make that an option, it's so easy to do so - the displays are bog standard and can be exchanged w/o any redesign..
I'd be in for a model with lesser GPU like X1400 or Go 7400 because it would save battery life and run cooler.. and for those who don't play - just perfect..
otherwise I'm pretty much content with MBP..
let's see..
Apple has no reason not to follow Intel's speed bumps, because on each speed bump the prices shifts towards the lower models, in other words Intel keeps the prices the same but speed bumps at every level.. if Apple does not update, they're keeping extra money in their pockets..
as for the updates, I'm curious wheter it's gonna be just a processor switch or wheter they will also move from ATi to nVidia as they did in iMacs.. ATi is now owned by AMD and maybe somehow Apple bets more on nVidia because of using Intel processors only.. also I don't expect MXM slots for video cards for the same reason there's no processor socket in MBP, they ough to keep this as tight as possible..
I personally don't care about DL SuperDrive, but as they managed to fit it into same 1" thick 17" model, they should do it with 15.4" models too..
what I miss absolutely the most is WSXGA+ resolution in 15.4" and WUXGA in 17" - make that an option, it's so easy to do so - the displays are bog standard and can be exchanged w/o any redesign..
I'd be in for a model with lesser GPU like X1400 or Go 7400 because it would save battery life and run cooler.. and for those who don't play - just perfect..
otherwise I'm pretty much content with MBP..
let's see..
~Shard~
Jul 14, 02:40 PM
They'd better have something in between this and the iMac...
Did you see my above post? Great minds think a like... ;)
Did you see my above post? Great minds think a like... ;)
Unspeaked
Nov 29, 12:59 PM
For starters, it's not illegal to download music freely. There are quite a few artists that allow free downloads of their music, so the first part of your statement "it's illegal to download music freely" is not correct. The second half of your statement ".... people are doing it....", assumes that everyone is guilty until they prove themselves innocent. Which is wrong.
Of course not all music is illegal to download, but for the sake of the conversation, which is full of 10 pages of posts concerning Universal's copyright protected cataloge, I assumed a qualifier wasn't necessary in my post.
To make myself clear, it's illegal to download copyrighted music which the artist and/or label has not explicitely made available as a free, promotional download.
Of course not all music is illegal to download, but for the sake of the conversation, which is full of 10 pages of posts concerning Universal's copyright protected cataloge, I assumed a qualifier wasn't necessary in my post.
To make myself clear, it's illegal to download copyrighted music which the artist and/or label has not explicitely made available as a free, promotional download.
fivepoint
Apr 27, 04:19 PM
It'd be fascinating to see how much people cared about 'layers' if the documents in question related to Bush's National Guard deployment or something similar. ;) Haha, no bias here boys!
The difference between me and you is that I'd want an explanation in either account. ;)
The difference between me and you is that I'd want an explanation in either account. ;)
X2468
Mar 26, 01:39 PM
Good stuff, waiting and ready to pay! :o
It's this mentality that makes me smile.
Without knowing any of the details as to what the final shipping version will be, mezmerized (hypnotized ?) by Apple, enthusiasts are ready to pay whatever Apple demands for the product.
I get to sit back without any effort, and watch with delight as they pour the money into Apples coffers. In turn, my vast amount of Apple stock climbs higher & higher as they brag about Apples Billions.
Their blind trust pays me well. Thanks Apple !
It's this mentality that makes me smile.
Without knowing any of the details as to what the final shipping version will be, mezmerized (hypnotized ?) by Apple, enthusiasts are ready to pay whatever Apple demands for the product.
I get to sit back without any effort, and watch with delight as they pour the money into Apples coffers. In turn, my vast amount of Apple stock climbs higher & higher as they brag about Apples Billions.
Their blind trust pays me well. Thanks Apple !
borisadmin
Jul 28, 08:00 AM
The question for the developers would be: If I switch to 64 bit exclusively, so my code runs ten percent faster on Core 2 Duo, but 1-2 million Macintosh users cannot use it at all, how many sales will I gain because it is faster, and how many sales will I lose because 2 million people cannot use it? Three years from now, the answer will still be that you lose more sales running 64 bit only.
Thanks heaps gnasher729, that's exactly the kind of perspective I was looking for! I'll wait until WWDC to see if there's a bump, but I need to upgrade my PB G4 12" because the optical drive has broken, so I think I'll get a Macbook then regardless.
Thanks heaps gnasher729, that's exactly the kind of perspective I was looking for! I'll wait until WWDC to see if there's a bump, but I need to upgrade my PB G4 12" because the optical drive has broken, so I think I'll get a Macbook then regardless.
Bosunsfate
Aug 5, 04:56 PM
6PM London time..
Use the dashboard clock widget if you're in the UK and open a clock then set it to Cupertino..
Correct, the time difference is plus 8 hours. Good call on the widget usage. :p
Use the dashboard clock widget if you're in the UK and open a clock then set it to Cupertino..
Correct, the time difference is plus 8 hours. Good call on the widget usage. :p
Erasmus
Aug 27, 01:18 AM
Damn PowerPC fans.
Apple is INTEL now. We Love Intel Because Stevie Tells Us So.
We hate AMD and IBM. Should Apple ever move to another CPU provider, we will seamlessly transition to hating Intel again. This is the Way of the Mac.
What's so good about G5's anyway? They are slow, too hot, and skull juice.
Why do we love Intel? Because Steve says to, and Core 2 Duo is powerful, cool, not permanently drunk, allows us to run Windows and helps Apple increase its market share.
We love ATi because just like Intel, their products are the best at the moment. We still love nVIDIA because their GPUs are in the Mac Pro.
We love Israel because they make our Core 2 Duos and we love China because they make our Macs. We love California because that's where Our Lord Stevie J is (Don't particularly care about the rest of the US, sorry guys).
We love our Big Cats because they run so fast and look so clean and powerful (Hmmm... Mystery of OS codenames revealed?) and of course because they are not Windows, which are susceptible to breaking...
People who live in Windows shouldn't throw Viruses?
Off track...
Anyway, Rawr to all you PowerPC fanboys (And girls)
Intel 4EVER!
Apple is INTEL now. We Love Intel Because Stevie Tells Us So.
We hate AMD and IBM. Should Apple ever move to another CPU provider, we will seamlessly transition to hating Intel again. This is the Way of the Mac.
What's so good about G5's anyway? They are slow, too hot, and skull juice.
Why do we love Intel? Because Steve says to, and Core 2 Duo is powerful, cool, not permanently drunk, allows us to run Windows and helps Apple increase its market share.
We love ATi because just like Intel, their products are the best at the moment. We still love nVIDIA because their GPUs are in the Mac Pro.
We love Israel because they make our Core 2 Duos and we love China because they make our Macs. We love California because that's where Our Lord Stevie J is (Don't particularly care about the rest of the US, sorry guys).
We love our Big Cats because they run so fast and look so clean and powerful (Hmmm... Mystery of OS codenames revealed?) and of course because they are not Windows, which are susceptible to breaking...
People who live in Windows shouldn't throw Viruses?
Off track...
Anyway, Rawr to all you PowerPC fanboys (And girls)
Intel 4EVER!
dongmin
Sep 19, 10:02 AM
It gets annoying. Why? Because it's true and most people don't want to admit it.
In a few cases here and there, the extra processor power/speed is going to help. But for a majority of people buying a MacBook, they're not going to be burning home-made DVD's, doing intense Music compositions, or using it for hard-core gaming. They're going to SURF and WRITE.
As for the "resale" value, again, most people who are buying a used MacBook are NOT going to ask "is it a Merom?" They're going to ask how nice the case is, how much use it's gotten, and how much it is, and that's it.
Everybody likes to play "ooo, I'm the hard-core computing whiz and I need the BEST out there", but I bet you if you took an honest poll out there of everyone who's answered this thread, you'd find at least 75% these Apple fans have no need for for the extra speed, they just want it because it's "cool" and "fast" and it's the latest thing out there.While you make some valid points, you overlook others:
1. As soon as the new model comes out, the older models will drop in price. So even if you aren't getting the fastest and greatest, even if you're buying the lowest end MBP, you'll benefit from the price break.
2. MBPs are expensive computers. You're investing in something that you'll keep around for 3-4 years. I want to future-proof my computer as much as possible. Features like easily-swappable HD and fast graphics card will affect "the average user" 2+ years from now (pro'ly sooner) when everyone's downloading and streaming HD videos and OS X has all this new eye-candy that will require a fast graphics card.
3. There are other features than just a 10% increase in CPU power that we are hoping in the next MBP, including a magnetic latch, easily-access to HD and RAM, and better heat management. Certainly the average Joe will be able to benefit from these features, even if all you do is word process and surf the web.
In a few cases here and there, the extra processor power/speed is going to help. But for a majority of people buying a MacBook, they're not going to be burning home-made DVD's, doing intense Music compositions, or using it for hard-core gaming. They're going to SURF and WRITE.
As for the "resale" value, again, most people who are buying a used MacBook are NOT going to ask "is it a Merom?" They're going to ask how nice the case is, how much use it's gotten, and how much it is, and that's it.
Everybody likes to play "ooo, I'm the hard-core computing whiz and I need the BEST out there", but I bet you if you took an honest poll out there of everyone who's answered this thread, you'd find at least 75% these Apple fans have no need for for the extra speed, they just want it because it's "cool" and "fast" and it's the latest thing out there.While you make some valid points, you overlook others:
1. As soon as the new model comes out, the older models will drop in price. So even if you aren't getting the fastest and greatest, even if you're buying the lowest end MBP, you'll benefit from the price break.
2. MBPs are expensive computers. You're investing in something that you'll keep around for 3-4 years. I want to future-proof my computer as much as possible. Features like easily-swappable HD and fast graphics card will affect "the average user" 2+ years from now (pro'ly sooner) when everyone's downloading and streaming HD videos and OS X has all this new eye-candy that will require a fast graphics card.
3. There are other features than just a 10% increase in CPU power that we are hoping in the next MBP, including a magnetic latch, easily-access to HD and RAM, and better heat management. Certainly the average Joe will be able to benefit from these features, even if all you do is word process and surf the web.
badpup
Apr 10, 06:17 AM
I'm a little confused...why was Avid presenting at a Final Cut Pro User Group's meeting anyway? Do they just come in and are like "Hey, you've all made a mistake!" or something?
Lets not forget that Avid ISIS and unity storage products have been FCP compliant for some time now. + the amount of times I go FCP > pro-tools, which is also an Avid piece of kit :p
I'm a long standing FCP user - I cut my own work on it, but the post place I work in uses Avid. Lately I've really been thinking FCP (FCS in general) needs to catch up in a few areas... it'll be interesting to see what they update.
What sounds bad to me about apple hogging the whole stage is the wording in the original article... "demanded all lectern time". Whatever way you dress it "demanding" stuff seems mean, but as others have mentioned I bet it was all properly discussed. The sad thing is I wouldn't put it past Apple to demand something like this.
Lets not forget that Avid ISIS and unity storage products have been FCP compliant for some time now. + the amount of times I go FCP > pro-tools, which is also an Avid piece of kit :p
I'm a long standing FCP user - I cut my own work on it, but the post place I work in uses Avid. Lately I've really been thinking FCP (FCS in general) needs to catch up in a few areas... it'll be interesting to see what they update.
What sounds bad to me about apple hogging the whole stage is the wording in the original article... "demanded all lectern time". Whatever way you dress it "demanding" stuff seems mean, but as others have mentioned I bet it was all properly discussed. The sad thing is I wouldn't put it past Apple to demand something like this.
MatthewThomas
Apr 10, 11:45 AM
I'll be at the event and plan to give my take on it. I've been using FCP since day one and can attest that little actual functionality has changed over the years. There have been additional features added, but nearly no change to the way that you do your work. And in a post-tape world, this is not good.
Here is a long thread featuring my ideas and predictions over what the FCP platform may become, and how it might affect Apple's other distribution models:
http://www.cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=25464
I posted this a few days ago when this rumor first broke, but I think it might be fun to post again. It is a long thread, and some of the most interesting predictions are found buried in the dozen+ pages of posts. I should add that Cinema5D is a forum for digital filmmakers and commercial producers that need to operate on limited budgets, so the comments there reflect some of the best "up and coming" Final Cut Pro users.
Here is a long thread featuring my ideas and predictions over what the FCP platform may become, and how it might affect Apple's other distribution models:
http://www.cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=25464
I posted this a few days ago when this rumor first broke, but I think it might be fun to post again. It is a long thread, and some of the most interesting predictions are found buried in the dozen+ pages of posts. I should add that Cinema5D is a forum for digital filmmakers and commercial producers that need to operate on limited budgets, so the comments there reflect some of the best "up and coming" Final Cut Pro users.
Tones2
Apr 19, 01:37 PM
You failed to read the blog. Wanna try again?
What, that ONE GUY thinks Apple has a solid case? Yeah, I got that part. :rolleyes:
The point being that almost EVERY smart phone even before the iPhone has a black, rectangular shape with square application icons on the Home Screen and a button or three at the bottom. Some closer than others to the iPhone and to EACH OTHER. Jeez...
What, that ONE GUY thinks Apple has a solid case? Yeah, I got that part. :rolleyes:
The point being that almost EVERY smart phone even before the iPhone has a black, rectangular shape with square application icons on the Home Screen and a button or three at the bottom. Some closer than others to the iPhone and to EACH OTHER. Jeez...
Spoe
Apr 19, 03:43 PM
Apple Q3/09: 7 million devices and 17.1% marketshare
Apple Q3/10: 13.4 million devices (almost doubled!) but 16.7% marketshare.
Nokia Q3/09: 18 million devices and 44% marketshare
Nokia Q3/10: 29 million devices (+ 11 million!) but only 36% marketshare
So Apple sold 6.5 million more units but lost 0.4% marketshare.
Ya, right.
The iPhone is both gaining and losing market share, depending on what you mean by market share.
Do you mean what percentage of devices sold or what percentage of devices in use?
By the first measure, iPhone is slightly losing (by an amount that almost seems like it could be a statistical fluke -- it's basically flat) market share. By the other, it's still gaining market share (again by a pretty small amount).
And then, you get into comparing statistical reports from different sources. Lie, damned lies, and statistics, you know.
About the only certainty is it's debatable whether the iPhone is really losing market share and beyond that, whether Android is growing at the expense of the iPhone.
Apple Q3/10: 13.4 million devices (almost doubled!) but 16.7% marketshare.
Nokia Q3/09: 18 million devices and 44% marketshare
Nokia Q3/10: 29 million devices (+ 11 million!) but only 36% marketshare
So Apple sold 6.5 million more units but lost 0.4% marketshare.
Ya, right.
The iPhone is both gaining and losing market share, depending on what you mean by market share.
Do you mean what percentage of devices sold or what percentage of devices in use?
By the first measure, iPhone is slightly losing (by an amount that almost seems like it could be a statistical fluke -- it's basically flat) market share. By the other, it's still gaining market share (again by a pretty small amount).
And then, you get into comparing statistical reports from different sources. Lie, damned lies, and statistics, you know.
About the only certainty is it's debatable whether the iPhone is really losing market share and beyond that, whether Android is growing at the expense of the iPhone.
shawnce
Aug 6, 11:33 AM
Mac OS X Leopard
Introducing Vista 2.0
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=207241438&size=l
I bet we gonna get some good t-shirts this year like we did back when Tiger was announced ("Introducing Longhorn").
Introducing Vista 2.0
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=207241438&size=l
I bet we gonna get some good t-shirts this year like we did back when Tiger was announced ("Introducing Longhorn").
Multimedia
Aug 26, 08:28 PM
On the day that the MBP's with merom go on sale, I wonder WHAT TIME Apples website will change and display the new products? :confused:Updated Wesbite Is Usually by 9 Eastern. Occasionally later. But usually then. :)Probebly 10:00AM - 11:00AM Pacific time.No.Eastern? That's 6:00AM Pacific? You think? 9:00AM Pacific sounds good.No. its usually by 6AM Pacific 9AM Eastern. I KNOW - not guessing.
twoodcc
Aug 11, 10:10 AM
bring it on!! my razr isn't that impressive. in fact, not any phone i've ever had was. maybe apple can change this
sikkinixx
Aug 25, 06:53 PM
well im certainly annoyed with Apple's support right now. 3 times my Macbook has been in and now they tell me they cant FIX the problem (the only way I can get my macbook to boot up is to zap the PRAM every time). If I had known it was gonna be this much trouble I would have stuck with my pb or bought a Vaio... :mad:
camelsnot
Apr 5, 08:04 PM
I'd really like to see FCS become of a single app where the "suite" of apps becomes more of a "mode" of operating. In other words if you choose to do editing the UI can switch to a mode that focuses on that, as with compositing, titles (LiveType) or audio editing (Soundtrack).. and so on.
sorry but that's not the case. While some contend it's jaw-dropping, that's only because they're stacking it up against what FCS is currently. Compared to what Avid and Adobe are doing, Apple now has a mountain to climb. Apple has been too interested in their entertainment business to worry about their "pro" line (hardware/software). I know quite a few studios who have already shifted BACK to Avid and some are taking on the Adobe Suite completely as their software of choice. While some may find the new FCS exciting, and it does have some bells and whistles, it's typical Apple doing an incremental bump to keep up with what others are doing. Sad really.
sorry but that's not the case. While some contend it's jaw-dropping, that's only because they're stacking it up against what FCS is currently. Compared to what Avid and Adobe are doing, Apple now has a mountain to climb. Apple has been too interested in their entertainment business to worry about their "pro" line (hardware/software). I know quite a few studios who have already shifted BACK to Avid and some are taking on the Adobe Suite completely as their software of choice. While some may find the new FCS exciting, and it does have some bells and whistles, it's typical Apple doing an incremental bump to keep up with what others are doing. Sad really.
blahblah100
Apr 6, 02:52 PM
:apple:
That's all I have to say.
Really? Are sales numbers what dictates one product is better than the other?
I'm not saying the Xoom is better (I haven't used one) but a reading of the posts on this thread would suggest that sales number indicate that one product is better than the other.
That's all I have to say.
Really? Are sales numbers what dictates one product is better than the other?
I'm not saying the Xoom is better (I haven't used one) but a reading of the posts on this thread would suggest that sales number indicate that one product is better than the other.
Hastings101
Apr 6, 03:26 PM
did you feel dorky typing XOOM so many times. I would, because its dorky. It's the same reasons that everything in "Xenon: Girl of the 21st Century" was dorky
Don't you dare insult Zenon. Those were the best preteen made for tv disney movies ever. :mad::mad::mad:
Don't you dare insult Zenon. Those were the best preteen made for tv disney movies ever. :mad::mad::mad:
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